Back in 2019, I interviewed Rian Johnson at the Toronto International Film Festival the morning after the world premiere of the first “Knives Out.” This somehow seems both like not that long ago and impossibly ancient history, all at the same time.
But it was a time in which Johnson was still regularly asked what his three upcoming “Star Wars” movies were going to be about. I, too, am guilty of this. But in my defense, back then, “making ‘Star Wars’ movies” sure seemed like it was going to become Rian Johnson’s thing. And now here was this quirky little mystery movie he filmed in-between.
It was during this interview, watching Johnson’s face light up every time he discussed the prospect of more “Knives Out” movies and watching his face drop every time “Star Wars” was mentioned that it hit me. Ohhhhh, right, these are what he wants to be his “thing.” To the point that I even asked him if there was a future in which he’s best known for making murder mysteries and that it’s kind of weird he did one “Star Wars” movie. He responded, “I would be so thrilled.”
“Knives Out,” the little quirky mystery movie, would go on to gross over $300 million at the box office and lead to a reported $450 million deal with Netflix for two sequels. So, yeah, we do basically live in that future now on the eve of Johnson’s third “Knives Out” film, “Wake Up Dead Man.”
Daniel Craig is back as Benoit Blanc and, well, it’s probably best to stop right there as far as plot descriptions go. All you basically need to know is Josh O’Connor plays a conflicted priest named Jud Duplenticy, there’s a murder at his church, and Benoit Blanc must, once again, use his wits (and impeccable comedic timing) to solve the case. As with the past entries, an all-star cast makes up our list of suspects and eccentric weirdos, including Glenn Close, Josh Brolin, Andrew Scott, Mila Kunis, Kerry Washington, Jeremy Renner, Cailee Spaeny, Daryl McCormack, Jeffrey Wright, and Thomas Haden Church.
But the tone of “Wake Up Dead Man” is considerably different than the one of its predecessor, “Glass Onion.” Johnson is keenly aware of this, even bracing the crowd before its own TIFF premiere that it may not be what they are expecting. But, as Johnson says, these movies reflect the tone of the time and right now, yeah, with current events what they are, he’s feeling pretty angry.
Ahead, Johnson explores what the future might look like for Benoit Blanc and if there’s a world in which the title character could be played by anyone other than Daniel Craig. Also, he reveals there almost was a world in which quite a few people almost played Benoit when they thought Craig wasn’t available. Also, Johnson gives us his dream casting coup for the fourth installment with a direct plea to this Oscar winning actor. (Also, there’s probably a lot more talk about the 1993 film “Sliver” than you’re probably expecting.)
The following interview has been edited and condensed for length and clarity.
IndieWire: I noticed when you introduced “Glass Onion” at its TIFF premiere, it was just a quick, “let’s watch the fucking movie!,” but with “Wake Up Dead Man,” I wouldn’t say you’re worried, but you did give a longer explanation that this might not be the movie audiences are expecting.
Rian Johnson: Yeah, not worried. And this is also part of the reason why I was excited to make the third movie right away. I think when you have two films in a series, people can chart, tonally, where those are at draw a line through them and assume that’s where the series is going. So part of the fun of it was, let’s break that pattern for people. These movies can be whatever they need to be, tonally. So, I’m aware it’s a big change from “Glass Onion” and I wanted to kinda set the stage a little bit for people.
‘Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery’©Netflix/Courtesy Everett Collection
Right, normally the second movie is the darker film.
These movies are very much a reaction to the world. I wrote the second movie during lockdown, so the notion of a big fun vacation movie would be not only a fun thing to shoot but people might just be in to at that moment. So that’s maybe where that came from. And right now it feels a little darker.
So is this you being in an angrier headspace so you made an angrier movie?
Well, I don’t know. For me, there’s something about… I can’t sit down to write unless I’m angry about something. Even on the first two that were a maybe a little lighter in tone…
The second one was pretty scathing about tech bros.
Yeah, so for me, anger is one of the things you kind of have to have to be motivated to sit down to write something. With this one, it’s all stuff I care very deeply about. There’s the stuff I’m angry about and there’s the stuff I feel passionate about that the world actually desperately needs more of right now. So, I don’t know, man, I think that’s why I was a lot more nervous [at the “Wake Up Dead Man” premiere] then I was on “Glass Onion” before showing it. It’s just more personal in a lot of ways for me. These are big entertainment, and it always feels weird saying this, but these are, for me, incredibly personal movies.
So basically what you were trying to convey was, I have something to say here.
Yeah, hopefully not in “a message” way, but for me it’s very much about the character of Blanc and the character of Jud, which is Josh O’Connor’s character….
It’s a film dealing directly with politics and religion.
Yeah, absolutely. And that dialogue between them, I have both of those guys inside me. I have both of those halves of me, basically. And to let those two halves talk was what was personal about the movie, I guess. Just meaning that it’s not important to me because I had a message to get across, God forbid. But that it’s a topic I really care about and I wanted to do a movie that was both an entertainment, but took topic seriously.
When we spoke for the first “Knives Out,” I kind of said it half-jokingly, but I mentioned it seemed like you just wanted to make these the rest of your career. You were dead serious about even the possibility of making more of these. Well, here we are.
I feel the exact same way. Especially after working with the past two casts. It’s heaven. But the thing I’m writing now is not one of these movies. It’s an original, totally different thing. So I won’t just be making these. But if Daniel and I feel we are able to figure out a different thing to talk about, or approach, or makes it scary in the right way for us, I would be thrilled to keep making these movies.
I’m not using this reference because Daniel Craig played this character, but is Benoit Blanc like James Bond for you in which different actors could play him if Daniel doesn’t want to do it anymore? Or is he Indiana Jones where Harrison Ford is Indiana Jones?
He’s Indy. He’s Daniel doing it.
‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery‘John Wilson/Netflix
I ask because, obviously, many people have played Hercule Poirot.
Yeah, totally. For me, personally, these movies are working with Daniel. It’s a partnership. And the instant either one of us feels even slightly like not doing it, we’ll stop doing it.
Is it satisfying for you how happy he seems?
Oh, God, it’s my favorite thing.
Famously, he was not always thrilled about playing James. He certainly doesn’t say that about Benoit.
Like I said, Daniel is a partner in these things. We’re in the boat together in this thing. I think the pressure we both put on ourselves is trying to do right by the other one. And that’s a really good partnership. If Daniel is happy, I’m happy.
Every movie, you have to build new rapport between him and a brand-new cast. Have you considered every bringing anyone else back from the prior films?
In terms of, “God, I’d love to work with that actor again?”
Yeah, maybe as a new character or the same character?
Edward Norton kept joking how he’s going to come out with a big moustache.
I get the feeling he’d love to do that.
He would do it. On one hand, I would do that in a heartbeat. On the other hand, I love working with actors so much. There are so many actors I haven’t worked with I want to work with. And that’s one of the real treats of making these movies is you get to experience new actors and these big casts. At the same time, I’d be lying if I didn’t say: one of the great things about doing these movies is I get to know these actors so, when I’m writing original stuff now, that are not these movies, of course I have everyone in mind for it.
Is there someone you’ve gone to for every one of these movies who has said no?
Well… no, there’s nobody who is like the white whale. But, it’s a casting process for each of them. It may seem, from the outside, with these movies we just get our pick of the litter. It’s not the case. The reality is it’s a casting process and you’re going after movie stars who have busy schedules and you get a yes or no, but at the end of the day you make the movie and you can’t imagine anyone else in the part.
Was Daniel Craig always going to be Benoit?
When we were first trying to get “Knives Out” made, Daniel wasn’t available. He was doing the Bond movies. He was my first choice for it, but he was a hard “not available” because he was on the Bond movies. So, we went to other people for it. We got a bunch of “no”s about Benoit Blanc.
Wait, really?
Yeah. There’s an alternate universe, I’m not going to tell you the people we went to.
OK, let me ask this then: Have you run into any of those people you asked who said no who are now like, “Yeah I should have done that”?
No. I mean, this is how it works…
Right, but, maybe you’re at a party and someone is like, “Man, I didn’t know.” No one has expressed regrets?
I don’t know. I mean, I don’t think any of these people are tearing their hair out at all.
‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery’Courtesy of Netflix
Right, but it’s pretty hard to create new IP these days and you created a brand new character who has been in three movies now.
I’ll reiterate that the instant there was some delay with the Bond movie and Daniel had a window, the instant he became available, I leapt. Thank God. Thank God Daniel got it. And the moment Daniel read the script and said yes, it was six weeks until we were shooting. So the whole movie was put together really, really quickly. Which, actually, with casting helps. It’s not, can you save us a slot six months from now? And then maybe they get a Marvel movie or something. It’s, can you come to Boston next week?
You didn’t use the U2 song, “Wake Up Dead Man.”
No.
You did use “Glass Onion” by The Beatles in the second movie.
I did, yes.
No offense to Bono, but probably not the same cinematic impact as “Glass Onion.”
And probably a little cheaper. I think “Pop” is a very underrated album actually. I mean, the phrase “wake up dead man” I actually know from an old folk ballad and Pete Seger sang on that album.
Played last year by Edward Norton.
Full circle. Every time.
What further adventures do you envision for Benoit?
I don’t know? The thing is, it really is true that if you’re a fan of the whodunnit genre, you’re aware of how broad a spectrum the mystery movie can be.
I saw “Green for Danger” because you programmed it at the Paris Theater in NYC. I had never even heard of this movie…
It’s great! It’s a medical mystery.
Right, set during World War II. And the ending is truly insane and hilarious.
It’s perfect. It’s so good! But I don’t know, like I said, the thing I’m going to do next is an original…
You’ve brought this up more than once now. Do you want me to ask about it? What is it? I just assumed you wouldn’t tell me anything.
Oh, no no.
‘Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery’Courtesy of Netflix
I’m like, are these hints that he wants me to ask about this new original project?
They are not. They are not at all. I’m still writing it. But that’s just to say, I hesitate to call it an approach, but it’s really kind of what’s in the air right now and what feels exciting in the moment. That’s all to say, when it’s time to think about doing another one of these, that will be the time to think, OK, what seems exciting in the moment?
A volcano.
A volcano.
You read it here first.
Benoit flying into a volcano. Actually, do you know the story? When my wife Karina [Longworth], when she was researching Erotic ‘90s, her podcast season, the movie “Sliver” originally ended with a volcano. It originally ended with William Baldwin flying Sharon Stone in a helicopter into a volcano.
What?
Look it up. You heard it here first.
So in honor of the original ending of “Sliver,” we might see Benoit Blanc fly a helicopter into a volcano.
I’m just saying, who knows? I’m 90 percent sure it’s “Sliver,” but now watch it be “Jade.”
Okay, back to this new thing you are writing. Can you even say the genre?
I’d call it a paranoid thriller. A ‘70s paranoid thriller, sort of. With a sci-fi twinge. I’m still thinking about it but I’m really excited about it.
How many more do you have left with Netflix?
This was it. The deal was for two.
Do they want more?
We’ll have to have those conversations with them … we can talk more about “Sliver” if you want.
Obviously we can’t get into spoilers…
For “Sliver”?
Yes. There will be no “Sliver” spoilers here today.
I’m always tempted to do a joke at Q&As where I say, “So-and-so is the killer,” but then even joking about it means that that person isn’t the killer.
OK, I know you said there’s no “white whale” of someone you’ve gone to and can’t get, let’s pretend, at this point, anyone you’d ask would say “yes” to being in the next movie. Who would you want?
There are so many great actors I’d like to work with. But, yes, if you’re reading this, Meryl Streep, I feel like you’d slot into a murder mystery very well.
They did finally get her to appear on “SNL.”
If Lorne can do it, then, goddamn, so can we.
“Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery” opens in select theaters on Wednesday, November 26 before streaming on Netflix on Friday, December 12.
