‘Wake Up Dead Man’: Rian and Nathan Johnson on blending mystery and faith in new ‘Knives Out’ movie

Like the two that preceded it, the newest “Knives Out” movie, called “Wake Up Dead Man,” is an intricate murder mystery with an all-star cast.

Josh O’Connor stars as Father Jud Duplenticy, a Catholic priest sent to a small parish in upstate New York to work with the zealous, fear-mongering Monsignor Jefferson Wicks. When Wicks is murdered, Daniel Craig returns as the intrepid private detective Benoit Blanc to work the case.

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The mystery at the center of the movie is intertwined with religion, from Wicks’ firebrand preaching to Duplenticy’s focus on optimism and forgiveness to Blanc’s staunch atheism.

That’s due, in part, to writer-director-producer Rian Johnson and his cousin, composer Nathan Johnson, being raised as evangelical Christians.

“A bigger part of it, for me, is looking at the world right now, today, and pining for some of the best stuff that I got out of Christianity, from when I was a Christian,” Rian Johnson said. “I think that’s reflected in, in some ways, Benoit Blanc’s take on religion and Father Jud’s take on religion. Those two things are two parts of myself that are in constant conversation.”

5 questions with Rian and Nathan Johnson

Nathan, you grew up Christian but have since left the church. Why?

Nathan Johnson: “Honestly, for me, part of it was going to college and doing biblical studies, and as I began to dig into it for myself, I think that was part of my doorway out of it.

“At the same time, I think that in this movie, everyone reflected in it, I see shards of each of those characters that we grew up with all throughout it.”

Josh Brolin in “Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery.” (John Wilson/Netflix)

Monsignor Wicks shames a number of people — including LGBTQ+ people and a single mother — out of his parish. Rian, was this character based on things you heard growing up?

Rian Johnson: “It’s a distillation of a cloud of stuff that was present, I would say, as one element of the church as we grew up in it.

“I would say it’s not so much about hating one group or another, it’s about an us-against-them mentality. And I think that is the broader kind of thing that Nathan and I both had a reaction to: the notion of speaking of Christianity in the terms of war, speaking of it in terms of us-against-them, and about being under attack from the world outside and raising up walls, which is kind of the opposite of the things that Christ actually taught.

“Wicks is in opposition to Jud’s viewpoint, which is, ‘Let’s open our arms. Let’s go to people where they’re at. Let’s meet people who have need in their life, and let’s meet them at that level.’”

Tell me about this scene: Father Jud talks with a parishioner named Cy Draven (played by Daryl McCormack), who had a failed run for public office. Draven tells Father Jud he tried stoking every culture war, and the priest recommends going “back to basics.” Draven replies, “Basics, like show them something they hate and then make them afraid it’s going to take away something they love?”

Rian Johnson: “For me, that whole thing reflects not even so much just pointing the finger at one platform. For me, the real humor of that scene is just how exhausted all of us are — no matter what side of the platform we’re on — about the barrage of all of these hot-button issues being cynically used by people in order to push our buttons.”

Nathan Johnson: “I think it also taps into this idea of, when we feel like we’re under siege, we can essentially justify any number of things against the opposition. And I think the thing that, to me, is so beautiful and that really got me about this movie, is in Father Jud’s character, there’s such a generosity and a humility and open arms for one’s enemies. And I long to see more of that in the world today.”

(L-R) Andrew Scott, Mila Kunis, Daryl McCormack, Glenn Close, Kerry Washington and Cailee Spaeny in “Wake Up Dead Man: A Knives Out Mystery. ” (John Wilson/Netflix)

You have a whole cast of nuanced characters, and the audience doesn’t know who the good or bad guys are. Nathan, how do you try to be careful with the music, with those characters? 

Nathan Johnson: “The thing that Rian and I talked about from the very beginning is we’re not trying to do anything crazy clever with the music. We’re actually just trying to join the characters in the most honest way possible.

“On the other hand, because this is a movie set in a church, and we grew up in it, we had a real broad palette to play with, and our approach was using certain instruments that are common in the church but maybe playing them in a different way.

“Specifically with the Wicks character, anytime he is in the pulpit preaching, we’re doing a really tricky mathematical thing where I’m having the orchestra play in two different time signatures and two different tempos, and they’re mathematically related, but the groove feels really uncomfortable and really off. And for me, this was a musical way to evoke what it feels like when someone in power is using a platform to tell you [that] things are a certain way, and then you look around yourself, and you realize, ‘That’s not the way that I see the world.’”

What makes a “Knives Out” movie a “Knives Out” movie?

Rian Johnson: “I hope, if it boils down to it, it’s fun. I mean, honestly, that’s the essence of what I’m reaching for: my memories, not only of growing up reading Agatha Christie, but as a kid with my family, watching those early adaptations, watching Peter Ustinov in ‘Death on the Nile’ or Albert Finney in ‘Murder on the Orient Express.’

“They’re great mysteries. They’re all-star casts, and they are just a fun, fun ride. And that’s kind of where all of this stems from.”

This interview was edited for clarity. 

Emiko Tamagawa produced and edited this interview with Mark Navin. Grace Griffin produced it for the web.