Diary Of A CEO: w/ Divorce Lawyer James Sexton (Transcript)

And that’s all we. Instead of trying to remember that at some point, the relationship that you’re in was something you aspired to. Like, the idea that you were someday going to find a person who just was your favorite person and you were their favorite person, and you were going to be there for each other and see each other’s blind spots and help each other, like, figure out who you are and be it. And that you were going to grow together and change together. And some core things would stay exactly the same, and some things would change in beautiful, meaningful ways. And you’d see each other through amazing things and terrible things and all the things that the world throws at you. You’d never be alone again because you’d have this person.

And somehow it’s considered sort of odd to check in and want to be good at that job and have performance reviews. Like, you run teams. You run so many teams. How often do you go, we don’t need to have performance reviews.

STEVEN BARTLETT: I think at the heart of this is, we assume probably through media and social media, that relationships are supposed to be effortless.

JAMES SEXTON: Why?

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s just kind of what you see, right? Like, I remember, I remember my girlfriend telling me the other day, she was like, oh, there’s this couple I follow on Instagram and they’re like, amazing. They’re like the perfect couple. And it’s just, just turned out that the guy is sleeping with someone else.

And I thought again, I thought, well, my girlfriend vicariously watching that couple for the last five years has probably increased her expectations on what a relationship should be because she’s just had this sort of two dimensional window. But there was some. The natural mess of relationship was taking place outside of view, and we all just have the 2D window. Like relationship problems on Instagram, broadcasting. That doesn’t drive followership.

JAMES SEXTON: No. And what I’ll also say is, look, we formulate a lot of our conception of what a relationship should look like by portrayals of relationships in film and television. Right?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

Relationships Aren’t Like Rom-Coms

JAMES SEXTON: Okay, so can we agree that the rom-com or the romantic film is basically just an emotional version of pornography? Like, it’s a stylized exerted falsehood that’s designed to amplify the most visually and emotionally compelling or stimulating aspects of things. Like, yes, there’s conflict, but it gets cleaned up very neatly and very nicely.

Like, there’s. It’s. So this perception that relationships should be effortless is based, I think, on largely that which is this feeling that. And again, whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on where you end the story. Right? So we always end the story in a spot where it’s like, ta da, they’re in love and they walk off hand in hand. But, right, they walk off into life. They walk off into this ecosystem of life that’s filled with complexity and there’s factors beyond our control that are impacting our emotional state and the emotional state of our partner, the you, the me and the we.

So there’s a lot going on and the thought that, well, this should be effortless, everything else is a lot of work and potentially, and by the way, the opposite, like, this is effortless and this is a drudgery. And we tend to just see things in that binary way unnecessarily. Like we’ve made so much progress as a society when it comes to not viewing everything in a binary. Like there’s not as much rigidity about gender roles anymore. There’s not as rigidity about, you know, are you a worker? Are you like a career person or a family person? Like, there’s a sense of, wait, you can kind of be a little bit of both. Like, look at these things as a spectrum a little bit.

So. But this, we’re still pretty glued into this idea that, like, relationships are supposed to be the smoothest, easiest thing, or relationships are hard work. You’re not supposed to be happy all the time. And shut up if you think that that’s what you are. Oh, you’re not happy, nobody’s happy, or you’re not supposed to be happy. It’s not the point of marriage. The point of marriage is a commitment.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Are relationships supposed to be simple?

JAMES SEXTON: I don’t know what you mean by simple. Simple to navigate. No, they’re obviously not simple to navigate. Because 56% of them end in divorce.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is it going to be hard?

JAMES SEXTON: If your definition of hard is I have to pay some level of attention to it, then yes, it’s going to be hard. Is that hard? Like, is that hard? Really? Is that hard? Like, I don’t think it’s that hard. Paying attention isn’t that hard. Remembering to pay attention might be hard. But don’t you create reminders for yourself? You’ve got so many gadgets and you can’t have some reminder in the day of, like, oh, her. Keep her in my line of sight again, it doesn’t mean you don’t love her that she’s not front of mind. It means you’re a driven, hardworking person. I’m a driven, hardworking person. There’s tons of times where very important things in my life aren’t front of mind, but that’s why I use reminders.

Why Relationships End

STEVEN BARTLETT: So to invert that question that I asked at the top of this. If I am to come to you at some point in the future, James, and I say, listen, I need a divorce, what am I likely to give as the reason for that? Based on, you know, who I am and how that correlates to the clients like me that you deal with.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah. So the reason you’re going to give, and the underlying reason is different. So the reason you’re going to give is going to be a practical reason, which is either I’ve met someone else, she’s met someone else. We’ve had a terrible fight and said things that we can’t take back. I had a spectacular failure financially, and she’s just bailing on me because she sees that the future’s really rocky, or she made some terrible decision and did something awful. That’s a betrayal that I can’t abide by.

But again, that’s the presenting reason. Underneath that is the bigger reason, which is we lost the plot. We lost the plot. Like, that’s the start of a chapter in a story. It’s the end of a chapter and the start of a chapter. That photo, like, the first chapter in that story was this person and this person wandering around on the same planet trying to figure it out, trying to figure out what they’re doing. And they have their origin story, and they have their complementary pathologies that developed over time.

And then, you know, they found each other, 8 billion people in the world, and somehow their paths intersected, you know, and they started to have this connection. And so there was the you and there was the me, and then there was the we. And that Venn diagram started right. And then you start to fill it with things. You fill it with people, you fill it with experiences.

And this is just a stop along the way. Like these two people. This is just a moment. It’s an incredible moment. It can be like Qumran. It can be like a moment that there was this and then everything after this. It’s a punctuation mark. Like, I like to say that life has punctuation marks. Like, you had a kid, you lost your job, you got a job, whatever. Those are punctuation marks. This is a big punctuation mark. And it will either be, you know, the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning. You get to write that. You get to write that chapter.

But this is a moment for me. The reason why this is a beautiful moment is this is a moment of tremendous optimism. This is a moment where the two of you said, you’re my favorite person, and I want to write this next chapter with you as having a different title in it. But really, like, the title’s just a symbol. The ring is just a symbol. It’s just a symbol of a commitment. It’s a symbol of a promise. And all the promise is is a symbol of intention. That’s all. It’s just an intention. Our intention is we’re not going to be alone anymore. We’re going to do this together.

And by the way, you’re already not alone. The fact that you got to this place, that you would ask this question, that’s a beautiful confirmation of the fact that you don’t feel alone.

STEVEN BARTLETT: We would have lost the plot.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah, yeah, you would have lost the plot of the story. So this is a story. Where does this story go. Where do you want it to go? You want it to go to a future that features the two of you old together someday? Maybe it features children. Maybe it features companion animals.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And what is the most likely reason that we would lose the plot?

JAMES SEXTON: You stop paying attention. You stop doing what you’re currently doing. How did you get to this beautiful moment? You start doing the opposite. You got to this moment by paying attention. You got to this moment by making this a priority. You got to this moment by keeping this front of mind, by valuing, what is this but a symbol of you are valuable to me.

Why did you get on one knee? Why do you get on one knee? I mean, think about the symbols of all of this. We live in a world of symbols. Like the outfit I’m wearing. I’m saying something to you. I take this seriously. That’s why you wear a suit, is you wear a suit to say, I take this seriously. So why did you do this? What is this? A symbol. I’m down on one knee. Why? I’m humbling myself in front of you. I’m offering something to you. I’m hoping you will accept the gift I am giving to you. Like, there’s something very lovely about that symbol.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Is this what you call slippage?

Understanding Slippage in Relationships

JAMES SEXTON: Slippage is exactly when you start to unintentionally, again, people rarely have slippage intentionally. It’s usually that, okay, we got that knocked out, now we can focus on the other stuff. And that’s slippage. Slippage is these small disconnections. Small disconnections that in of themselves mean nothing. Like no single raindrop’s responsible for the flood. That little raindrop, it’s just a little raindrop. That’s all it really is.

But slippage is this gradually increasing number of small disconnections that eventually leads to the giant marriage killer that you come in and say, here’s why we’re getting divorced. But it wasn’t that. It was all these little pieces. But at some point you were there.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you think people spot the slippage in the moment, but they don’t think it’s big enough to fight about or do something about?

JAMES SEXTON: 100%. And that’s the cognitive bias. That’s the fallacy that will keep me in business for the rest of my life. Because people just don’t want temporary discomfort like our desire for joy versus our aversion to pain. Our aversion to pain will win every single time. We know this. That’s why there was an opiate crisis more so than a cocaine crisis. Because one of those things is about making you feel really good. And the other is about getting rid of, like, the human desire.

Any scientist will tell you this. Ask our friend Andrew Huberman. Ask anybody. They will tell you the human desire to escape pain is the controlling aspect of self. So escaping pain, even discomfort. Even discomfort. And again, this is pushed by the narrative that love should be easy. If you’re going to make, if anything’s uncomfortable about it, you must be doing it wrong. Maybe you’re not with your soulmate. You know, it would be so easy and effortless. You’d always know what the other person wanted. You’d never have to tell them. They would know. They would know you well enough to know what it is that you need. And they would get you.

Even though, by the way, really, really, like, I’m 53 years old. I’ve been in therapy for 20 years. I get like 70% of this guy. I think, like, at best, like, and I’m in here. I’m in here, and I get about 70% of this guy. Like. And I’m supposed to get you 100%. Because we’re exchanging bodily fluids. Like, we’re. I’m supposed to just. Because we’ve slept in the same bed. I’m supposed to get you 100% and get ahead of stuff. Like, I get me 70%. And that’s with a lot of reflection.

So I really think that it’s wildly unfair for us to think that, you know, this should be effortless, this should be easy, and that it should never be uncomfortable. It’s okay to be like, I think because of what I do for a living, I have to tell people things they don’t want to hear all day because it’s true. And I tell them what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. And you know, when clients say to me at the end of a consultation or conversation, like, oh, my God, I feel so much better, I always go, that’s great. That wasn’t my intention.

Because I don’t want anyone I talk to professionally to think I am telling you something to make you feel better. I’m not here to make you feel better. I’m not a therapist. I’m here to tell you the truth. And if the truth makes you feel better, great. If the truth makes you uncomfortable, at least you know the truth now. So I feel like in relationship again, if what you want most is lasting lifelong connection where we get each other as best we can, we can help each other navigate self and each other as best we can. And we cannot lose the plot of a story that is really beautiful right now.

Addressing Problems Before They Become Floods

STEVEN BARTLETT: So everybody listening can probably think about something in their relationship which has gotten a little bit worse since they first got into that relationship. And it could be the way that they argue is getting a little bit worse. They’re not listening as much. Maybe the tone has gone up or it’s getting a little bit more angry. Whatever it is in their relationship, what do they need to do now? It’s like, it’s not flooded yet, but…

JAMES SEXTON: Best time to look at it, best time to talk about it.

STEVEN BARTLETT: There’s a puddle.

JAMES SEXTON: So what I do for a living in court is I try to manipulate people’s emotional state. That’s my job. Like, my job is to go and make the judge, like, my client dislike the other side. I want the other side to feel scared. I want my client to feel safe. I want the court reporter who’s taking things down and the court officer to like me and to like my client. So that when we take a break in testimony and they go in the back with the judge, they go, I like Jim. He’s a really good lawyer. Or, oh, his client seems so nice. Or, boy, the other guy seems like a good. Or boy, that other lawyer’s a jerk.

Like, so I’m here manipulating people’s emotional state. That’s my job. Like, that’s what a trial lawyer does. We manipulate people’s emotional state. We play with the levers, right? So I say this as to say, we should be doing this in our relationships. There’s nothing nefarious about that. These are tools, and how you use them will give you a sense of whether it’s good or bad or whatever. Look, if what you are doing is to maintain connection, how you parse it is going to be everything.

So even the way you just said that, like, well, something’s kind of going wrong in the relationship. Okay, we’re already off to the wrong narrative. Because when someone tells you something’s been done wrong, there’s this automatic defensive response of, well, I didn’t mean to do it wrong. And, well, you know, it’s not my fault that I did it wrong. Like, it brings out something defensive in us rather than saying, something’s changed.

Have you noticed that something changed? Have you noticed that? Remember when we used to talk to each other about, you know, sometimes, like, and I don’t know if it’s something that I’ve done, and if it is, you know, I really would appreciate you telling me. But, like, when we have been fighting lately, like, the tone seems to have changed. Have you noticed that? Is it just me?

Now it’s a non-defensive dialogue. I’m not accusing you of something. I’m noting that something has changed. And by the way, good, we love each. Look at how much we love each other in that picture. Like, look at. Put the wedding photos up somewhere. Look at that moment. We were nuts about each other. In that moment, we were everything the other person ever wanted and more. So anytime something has changed from that. Don’t you want to know? Don’t you want to know? And by the way, not in an accusatory fashion.

The most common one is we’re not having sex as much as we used to. We’re not having sex with you. We’re not having much sex. I’m not getting as much oral sex as I used to get. We’re not getting. Okay, there’s a way to say that, the way I just said it, that’s just going to blow up in your face. It’s not going to work because it’s, well, you haven’t been around as much. Well, I haven’t been around as much as I’m working so much. And I don’t see you spending less. Well, you know, honestly, if it comes down to that, I’d spend a lot to not have you treat me this way. Now we’re just having a fight.

Whereas if we say, like, remember how close? Remember when we went away? I was just thinking yesterday about when we went away that weekend. Remember we ended up not even leaving the room. It was so fun. I love when we’re like feeling that connected and close, you know, I feel like. I feel like lately sometimes, like we’re maybe not as connected and close. Like, and if there’s something I’m doing that’s making that, like, I really want to get it right. Like, I really want to get it right.

You know, there’s something about apologizing first, like having some humility in relationship that has tremendous value. Like when a lawyer, like, I’ll tell you one of my trade secrets. You know, my job is a very combative job sometimes. So there’s times where being very aggressive is the right move, but there’s times where being aggressive just doesn’t accomplish anything. And if I’m interacting with a lawyer for the first time, this is someone I haven’t had cases with. So we don’t know each other except by reputation. And they come at me really hard.

The first thing I’ll do is apologize. I’ll say, you know, I’m sorry, I just have to say, like, your tone, like, you’re coming at me like, it’s. If I said something in our initial interaction that made you feel like that I didn’t have respect for you or that, you know, I didn’t value your perspective or, like, I have a tendency to interrupt people sometimes. I have a tendency to. So if I offended you, I apologize. Because the way that you’re kind of talking to me, like, I feel like I must have said something wrong or I must have. So I apologize absolutely. If I did.

What is the. What choice do they have but to then go, oh, no, no, that’s. That’s just my tone. That’s just how I. Oh, yeah, of course. Okay. We all have a game face or thing. I just felt like, oh, my God, like, this guy’s coming at me so hard. Like I. I felt like I must have said something inadvertently or, you know, and then everyone’s kind of calmer now, you know.

So I think that this is a very easy way to invite discussion about these small preventative maintenance things without turning it into a whole. Like. Because we, again, we just think that, oh, if I bring that up, it’s going to turn into a whole thing. It doesn’t have to turn into a whole thing, period.

The Importance of Patience and Listening

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah. I think I asked that in part because I. It’s something that I. I’ve, like, subtly noticed that when we were. When we first met seven years ago, we were much more patient. And I’m like, I probably need to have a conversation about returning to being more patient. When we’re trying to solve problems, we kind of, like, rush through them now. And I just. I’m like, oh, you play this forward. You play this forward a decade or two decades. I’m like, damn, we’re really not going to be great at solving problems if we don’t just, like, slow down with them.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: And a lot of that just means, like, listening to the other person’s point of view a bit more intently.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah. And that’s hard. That’s hard because, you know, your brain moves quickly. Like, it’s something I struggle with in relationship, for sure. Like, any kind of relationship is. I’m very like, all right, come on, we got to land this plane. Like, let’s go. Like, skip to the end. Time is money. Like, what are we. What are we doing? Where are we going with this? Like, and I. I’m terrible at it. I interrupt people constantly. Like, I’m not good at that. And it’s something I’m working on. Because I think I know what they have to say next. And I’m wrong. A lot of the time, especially in relationship, I’m wrong.

It’s not a popular opinion to say that men and women are different, but men and women are different. And I don’t say that to say one is superior and one is inferior. I say that to say that we’re different. We navigate things differently, we experience life differently, we’re treated differently from a societal standpoint. We’ve had different life experiences. And I genuinely believe that it would be very valuable for us in relationship to sort of think, hey, I don’t really know everything about how this person is wired.

It took me fully 40 some odd years, if not 50, to figure out that if I’m in a romantic relationship with a woman and she comes home and starts telling me about something that’s upsetting to her, that she doesn’t want what my male friends want. Like if I called a buddy of mine, if I called you, I’ve called you before. If I called you and I said, Steven, I’m having this problem, man. I’m dealing with one of my sons and he’s doing X Wednesday. If you went, that must be very hard, Jim, I’d be like, yes, it is, Steven. That’s why I called you. Do you have any suggestions? Like, what do you think I should do here? Like, you’re a smart guy. I called you, I wanted you to help me.

Very often that is the opposite. Most women want you to hear them, give them some support. You guys could have this conversation. A couple can have this conversation. You can say, hey, listen, right now, in this moment, you’re not coming to me with a problem. But when you come to me with a problem, my natural proclivity is to start throwing solutions. And I’ve learned, or I heard Sexton say on Steven’s show that maybe that’s not the best way. Do you find that’s true? Do you want me to? Maybe when you say these things, could I. Because again, this is a job. I want to be good at this job. Why is it wrong for me to ask you how can I be better at this job?

Understanding Your Partner’s Needs

STEVEN BARTLETT: I found it really useful to state explicitly to my fiancé what my needs are in those situations. And again, it didn’t come naturally to her. And vice versa, it didn’t. What she needs from me in those situations is the opposite of what I need from her in those situations.

I’m thinking, particularly when she’s going through something and she’s struggling with something. She wants me to be present, and she often wants some advice on it. And her advice is the opposite of mine often. And in the inverse, when I’m going through those situations, I actually don’t want to talk about it at all. I just wanted to be there.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah, yeah.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But she wants to talk about it. I don’t want to talk about it.

JAMES SEXTON: But what would be wrong with saying in that moment, I’ve got a menu. I’ve got a menu for you. Can you tell me which one you want? Because just like you said, you’re hungry. And I said, what are you hungry for? You want sushi? Do you want me to make you something? Do you want some cheese toast? Do you want us to go out someplace and we can get burgers? What is it you want? Right?

Couldn’t you just say, hey, I’ve got a menu? I can just listen and tell you I love you and just be here. I can give you some solutions and how I might handle the problem. I can try to distract you and tell you a funny story about something that happened to me today, or I can pick you up and tickle you. We can go in the other room and roll around in the sheets for a little while and take your mind off it, and then we can figure out which of the other options you might want. We can go for a walk together and we can talk about it or not talk about it. What would you like on the menu?

Because I’m serving all of those things for you. Which one would you like? And the worst thing she could say is, I don’t know. And then you go, okay, then I’m going to pick one. I’m going to pick one, and if it feels good, great. And if it doesn’t, you’ll tell me. Okay. And I won’t be offended. Like, again, what’d that take, Steven? 30 seconds? 30 seconds. Throw that out there. Instead of just blindly throwing darts at the target, not knowing where the target is.

The Most Important Relationship Ritual

STEVEN BARTLETT: If you had to give everybody listening one relationship ritual that you would think would most increase the probability that they stay together, stay in love, what would that relationship ritual be?

JAMES SEXTON: I think that once a week, you should make a specific task of telling your partner three things that you really like about them, and every week it should be something different. I think you should tell your partner, if you really want to take the advanced edition of this, do you want to turn it from a 30 second task into a whole five minutes that you devote to your relationship?

You know, I feel about relationship maintenance the way that if you’ve ever heard this story, I think the Dalai Lama is the one credited with saying it, that a high end executive paid a colossal amount of money to have a private audience with the Dalai Lama. And the Dalai Lama said to him, you know, if you’re searching for inner peace, you should meditate for 15 minutes a day. And the executive said, I don’t have 15 minutes a day to meditate. And he said, then you should meditate for an hour a day.

I feel the same way. If you don’t have five minutes a week to devote to your spouse or partner, then you’re going to need hours. I think you should actually set aside hours, like five minutes a week. I would suggest the following exact, just systematic, basic thing. This is what my next book is about. It’s about a systematic approach to being good at love.

And the idea is once a week, I think, here’s the advanced version, but minimum, just write down, send an email, send a text, whatever it is. Tell your partner three things that you love about them. The advanced version is tell your partner three things you love about them. Tell them three times this week that they made you feel loved. Here’s three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Like, here’s three. When you sent me that message and said that made me feel so soft, that made me feel very loved. Like, whatever it is, I’m sure you could find off the top of your head three things that she did this week that made you feel loved. And it’s only Monday.

Why People Resist Simple Relationship Practices

STEVEN BARTLETT: People at home are in relationships right now. They’re hearing you say that and some of them are still not going to do it. Why do you think they’re not going to do it? Like, what is that mental conversation they’re having where they go, I think we’re…

JAMES SEXTON: Well, I think we’re, I think they think it’s pointless. I think they might be at a point in their relationship where it feels like, what would be the point? We’re so far gone, it wouldn’t help. I think more than anything, my real feeling on this, the secret that I don’t think people want to say out loud. I think we’re terrified. I think we’re terrified.

And I think what we’re terrified of is not the future of our relationship. I think what we’re terrified of is that we feel like we’re not worthy of love. I think it’s most people’s fundamental terror. I think most people’s fundamental fear is that if you knew me you wouldn’t love me. If you could see me, the real me, like the me that’s in here. All the weakness, all the fear, all the horrible, selfish thoughts, all the perversity, all the darkest things that are inside of me and every single one of us. That if you saw that, you couldn’t possibly love me.

And the feeling that comes with that, which is, so you love the character I’m playing. That’s not showing you all those things. I’m just showing you the best parts of myself. If you saw the real me, you wouldn’t really love me. I think our greatest fear is that we’re not worthy of love.

And I think that there’s a part of us that’s afraid to poke at, what do you love about me? What do I love about you? What am I getting wrong again? Like finishing that exercise, you know, here’s some things. Here’s three things I love about you. Here’s three things you did this week that made me feel loved. Here’s three things I could have done better or tell me three things I could have done better or tell your partner three things they could have done better. And then if you want to have a fun one thrown in there, because I think you should end on fun stuff, here’s three things you did this week that made me want to have sex with you.

Overcoming Resistance to Intimacy

STEVEN BARTLETT: I guess some people are listening right now and they’re thinking, well, you know, I’m dating Barry. Or they’re thinking, I’m dating Joanne. And she is not verbally intimate in this way. She would, if I suggested this to her…

JAMES SEXTON: Write it down. Don’t do it. You don’t have to do it verbally. I think verbally is too much pressure on people.

STEVEN BARTLETT: But even written down, if I told Dave that we’re going to start writing these notes to each other about three things I love, he’s going to cringe and he’s…

JAMES SEXTON: Bullshit. Bullshit. Honestly, really, that’s too hard. It’s too much of an ask. Like Dave, I don’t care what Dave does for a living. Dave could be a ditch digger for a living who’s not articulate in any way. Dave is moving in with you. Dave married you. Dave went out and put his money on the counter and bought a ring. Dave can’t name three things he likes about you. Really? Dave? Is that a big ask? Is that hard? Dave, like, come on. I absolutely call bullshit. Maybe he doesn’t want to. Okay, that’s a different conversation. Why don’t you want to? What’s uncomfortable about that for you?

STEVEN BARTLETT: It is uncomfortable for some people, isn’t it?

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah, it’s very uncomfortable for some people.

STEVEN BARTLETT: It’s quite interesting that you could be in a loving relationship with someone, but also be at some deeper level, scared of intimacy. And I’ll be honest, because it’s just me and you, nobody’s listening.

JAMES SEXTON: Sure. Of course.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Attorney client privilege. Yeah, I think at some level I’ve always been scared of intimacy. Makes it sound more conscious than it is. But at some deeper level, I’ve always been, I don’t know, a bit disconnected intimately. When it comes to being able to articulate these things.

JAMES SEXTON: Keep it simple. That’s why I want to keep that simple. I didn’t say, what is your love for me rooted in? And what is the nature of our connection and how does it fit into the broader context? Like, I had a very challenging relationship with my mother growing, and I feel like you fill some of the wounds that, whoa, guys, we don’t need. Like, Sigmund Freud doesn’t have to show up in the relationship.

What are three, we could do it right now in this relationship. What are three things I like about you? What are three experiences you and I have had with each other that made each other laugh? Like, we have a friendship. Like, what a joy that is, by the way. Like, what a joy it is to sit across from someone and say, you know what I like about you? Shit, man, I want to hear that list. Like, that’s lovely.

Attachment Styles and Emotional Fitness

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you think the whole idea of people being avoidant and sort of anxious, you know, this attachment style theory stuff, does that stuff track to what you’ve seen?

JAMES SEXTON: It does. But, you know, I also think too, like, I don’t understand why we treat our connections to other people differently than things we are. Like, exercise. Okay. Haven’t been to the gym in a while. You go to the gym, you’re going to be sore. You’re not going to be able to lift a lot. You’re going to have to start slow, and for a couple days, you’re going to be sore. And if you go, ooh, I was very sore after that. I’m not going back to the gym. Okay, then you’re never going to get fit, and you’re never going to get past the sore stage.

Because if you go, I’ll wait a month and then I’ll go back and do the same thing again. Guess what? You’re just going to, you have to move through the uncomfortable part to get to the part where it starts to feel really good. And you’re not as sore. Yeah, you’ll sometimes still be sore you push it a little too hard. Maybe worked out with Huberman that week. But you know what? Other weeks you go, hey, I don’t feel sore. I just feel strong and healthy.

So there’s going to be moments where this might feel a little weird, it might feel a little awkward, it might feel a little sore. There might be weeks where that kind of a simple little practice feels a little like, oh, it feels a little uncomfortable. Or you have a list of things that you did this week that made me feel loved. I have to reach for it. Okay, great. Isn’t that little uncomfortable conversation that might prevent slippage? Isn’t that little conversation better than the long term impact of having a distance start growing between the two of you that eventually becomes impossible to navigate because it becomes a chasm between the two of you?

STEVEN BARTLETT: Do you think the attachment style theory has any truth to it? From what you’ve seen, do you tend to find people are, you know, there’s some people that are avoidant of intimacy, there’s some people that are anxious, there’s some people in the middle.

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah. I mean, look, I think that we’re all creatures of our upbringing and I think a lot of our, I’m amazed as a 53 year old man in therapy how often a lot of my challenges are rooted in seven year old Jim.

STEVEN BARTLETT: As a man that talks so much about love, I’m curious to know what it is that you still struggle with in terms of, you know. Because I mean, I know from my own experience that I can know every, I can know so much. I sit here with experts all day, every day. It’s not like I don’t know this stuff. Yeah, but then putting it into practice is a different task.

The Challenge of Asking for Help

JAMES SEXTON: Yeah, I mean, it’s why you’ll never hear me use myself in my relationships as an example. Because I think you can be an incredibly skilled person at the theory of something and then in its practical application you have your own unique challenges. I think that using yourself as the example and your relationships as an example is dangerous because I learned it in my own professional life when I had a very friendly divorce.

And so my experience of divorce is the unique function of the constitution of my ex-wife and of me and of our unique circumstances that brought us where we are. So if I use that as the basis for my analysis of things, I think it’s a very shallow sample size.

I know for me, my greatest challenge in every relationship I’ve ever had, but even in my professional relationships, is acknowledging when I need help. I think because I was raised in an environment where a lot of my needs weren’t met. My father was a very serious alcoholic. My mother was trying to tend to a very serious alcoholic.

When I needed something, even from a very young age, I felt a lot of shame because it wasn’t met with, “I’m hungry for breakfast.” “Of course, let me make you some breakfast.” It was met with, “What, you can’t make your own breakfast? What’s wrong with you?” And I said, it was this guy. Yeah, yeah, that was me. That was me. My Bruce Lee poster and my… It was Chuck Norris up there. Yeah. This is probably like nine, nine years old. Okinawan Goju Ryu Karate. This is my room.

STEVEN BARTLETT: Yeah.

JAMES SEXTON: I was very, very lonely. I was really lonely. I was really sad. And I loved martial arts because there was this very clear kind of masculinity on display. Like this protective, strong superpower that you could build. It wasn’t just gifted to you. Like you didn’t win the genetic lottery. Like you could, through discipline and practice, you could have this superpower that would make you feel safe. And that was what I obsessed about having.

There’s still a lot of that person, that young man still in me that is afraid to ask for help. I wanted to be someone who I could do it all for myself. And I wish I could say, looking back, that it was because that was my natural proclivity is to want to be very self-actualized. But it really was that I was just absolutely sad and terrified that if I asked, I’d be shamed if I said, “Could you be nice to me?” that the answer would be no.

So I learned how to do everything. Like, I cook amazingly well. Like, I’m good at a lot of things. I’m good at most things. Almost anything I put my mind to, I’m good at. But it took me a lot of years to figure out that although that has served me really well and it’s built my career and the security and safety that came with being so successful and having financial success and now some level of notoriety, it took me a long time to figure out that that also has been the greatest obstacle in my life.

And I’m learning at the age of 53 that this guy is like, he’s still there and talking to me all the time. And I’ve learned now again through my own therapy to say to him, “Oh, I hear you. Like, I hear you. I’m glad you’re still there. Like, you don’t have to be so scared anymore.” I’m not. I’m grateful to him. I think that’s the best thing to aspire to, is to make peace with that.

Like, I’m sure in you there is some little boy, like, hiding in some part of his room, feeling very lost and very lonely. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong or weak or not masculine or not strong about acknowledging that that’s still a voice in your head and acknowledging that that voice in your head, like, it brought you where you are, but it also held you back in some ways.

And you’re never going to get rid of it. But maybe what you’ll do is hear it for what it is, which is it’s a voice that was once there, really important to save you, and it did a really good job of that. But that it’s okay. Like, it’s okay. You don’t have to beat that out of you, but you don’t have to listen to it either. You don’t have to let it drive the car.

Learning from Our Younger Selves

STEVEN BARTLETT: I was thinking, as you were speaking about how those of us that… Do you want me to take this photo back?

JAMES SEXTON: Oh, whichever. It’s great. It’s fun to see that guy. It’s funny that you pulled that out. I have to tell you. It’s a lovely thing. I think there’s something to learn from those versions of ourself. Like, if you hang out with kids, you just see, like, they don’t have all that hate in their heart. They hate naps. It’s the end of the list. Like everything else. Like, they just want to, like, love each other and hug each other and play.

And when they think they hurt someone, they stop. And they’re very scared because they didn’t mean to. And then we turn into these creatures that are just attacking each other all the time, you know? And I think at the end of the day, like, all we want is that, like, all we want is to just be like, that warm, open version of ourselves before the world beat the s* out of us.